The phrase reminds of the fragments of Thai, middle aged drunken sex tourists pick up and use around Patpong . Make no mistake that there are "plants" amongst the ranks here and more in the lurkers, but trolls and provocateurs are the least of our worries. - Peter Kaiser, Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. The words the tourist has bothered to learn (eg Thai for slut, human genetalia etc) demean and repress and don't work as the bridge that foreign guests normally construct with locals when they show thay are willing to try and meet the locals halfway and learn some language. Talk about varying the script a little! Well murdering marine. Trolls eat angry, emotional responses on websites. A 'shake and bake' fire mission has nothing whatsoever to do with artificial illumination or laying a delivered smoke screen ... Laws of War and Conventions/Treaties can supposedly be justifiably abrogated due to that flexible term, 'Military Necessity' ... according to the US ... Posted by: Outraged | Nov 10 2005 0:25 utc | 4. Free fire zones, and indiscriminate killing of civilians, which constitute willful killing, are grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. Posted by: Fran | Nov 11 2005 18:47 utc | 53. No such false illusions here. That’s right. Chemical weapons are classified as weapons of mass destruction by the United Nations, and their production and stockpiling was outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993. these were due to phosphor bombs. They will usually take out one building at a time. We just obfuscate re WP SOP, supposedly doctrinal, 'designed for' usage, and deny the battlefield facts. Aged about 9 I was simultaneously fascinated and repelled because I had never seen anything as graphic before and that gave me pause. by its nickname "Willy Pete", from the initials of White Phosphorous. They are weapons for maiming, terrifying, and causing unbelievable trauma, with death an uncertain and perhaps not necessarily desired side-effect (psychological ?). I was in/around Fallujah from Oct '04 - Feb '05. Though, IIRC, the US is one of the few nations that hasn't ratified the CCW ... As an 'incendiary weapon' it is also in breach re use when noncombatants (civilians) are in the target or affected target area, which they evidently have been re Fallujah, and this being demonstrably known by the belligerent, .i.e. Do you believe that Captain James T. Cobb, First Lieutenant Christopher A. LaCour and Sergeant First Class William H. Hight are lying when they authored "We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out." As a spokesman he's just trying to spin the categorization of WP as incendiary to deny and obfuscate the above. Plain ol' non-lethal CS, for instance, is classified as a chemical weapon, and subject to more restrictions than WP. Jarhead is not going to be swayed about being a tool for the Empire, we are not going to be swayed about justifying atrocities... so why are we still talking about this? Smokes obscure vision and are used to hide troops, equipment, and areas from detection. Thanks for your civil and illuminating observations, precious though paradoxical given the abominations under discussion. there is no way you can use white phosphorus like that without forming a deadly chemical cloud that kills everything within a tenth of a mile in all directions from where it hits. it's all down hill and they know it. Children and women are too frightened to go about their every-day life - everything has ground to a halt. By the way, this news has "shocked" my significant other here This thread would qualify as an interweb meme which doesn't give repug activities a good look. During the U.S. attack on Fallujah, dubbed "Operation Phantom Fury," Associated Press photographer Bilal Hussein saw U.S. soldiers "open fire on the houses." For publication of Global Research articles in print or other forms including commercial internet sites, contact: [email protected]. [....] The written record is what counts, radio or television is of transitory, fleeting impact (IMHO). It cannot occupy all of North Africa without true economic and personal sacrifice. Regardless of FOs or not, you haven't explained how it's possible to know if there are trapped non-combatants, hiding for thier lives, in the targeted building or for that matter, city blocks ... until after the bodies are collected ? The toxic agent was used during what a US army journal called ‘shake and bake’ missions … at Hue, Bagdhad or Fallujah; they justified their callous indifference by calling the Bagdhad citizenry thieves. You were in Arty, yet you've have never heard of 'shake and bake' ? But to say that those in Iraq now are nothing but a bunch of no good killers? It is supposed to be an absolute last resort, when negotiations have failed, all other options exhausted, a to be avoided necessary evil sometimes, to keep a larger peace. Posted by: Outraged | Nov 10 2005 17:30 utc | 37. Center Posted by: name | Nov 10 2005 8:17 utc | 23, I still hope that the authors and prime movers for these horrors (and I mean the political leadership, of course) will at least come to be viewed as nothing more than war criminals by a large and vociferous minority of the U.S. population. (function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){i['GoogleAnalyticsObject']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){ Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 12 2005 0:51 utc | 88. Especially typical used on enemy forces 'dug-in' in bunkers, foxholes, trenches, fortified buildings. Its interesting how this "gets traction", after being "known" (and I confess) forgotten by those who were interested even at the time. ‘Shake ‘n Bake’ This line however [that white phosphorus had only been used as a smokescreen] crumbled when bloggers (whose influence must not be under-estimated these days) ferreted out an article published by the US Army’s Field Artillery Magazine in its issue of … We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today -- and we will not vote for them again in 2002. According to globalsecurity.org: "The burns usually are multiple, deep, and variable in … Dressing in civilian clothes and shooting at military personnel is a crime. Pentagon lawyers and military spokesmen (PR flaks) may insist that white phosphorus weapons like the WP M110A2 155 mm "smoke" artillery round are perfectly legal "smoke, incendiary or illumination devices", but it is very telling that But here we screw ourselves into the ceiling every month or so absolutely convinced that THIS TIME someone's going to the Hague, by God, or at least to impeachment. But owning and using a flame thrower is not ok. He moved to Norway (the ancestral home of his wife). Now you have to add to the stories you hear, well gee, maybe there was some omission to the story such as, not stopping, or appearing to charge a barricade. Man cannot understand the capricious horror of war so he has to”compartmentalize and deal with it abstractly, objectively”. I will not support you in any way. Posted by: Outraged | Nov 11 2005 20:02 utc | 62, i suspect the more we are able to see of photograzphs & films of what is happening on the ground - the more we will hear propoganda campaigns to say it is not happening at all. source with enough credibility to reduce the "plausible deniability", and the "Field Artillery" article by Cobb, LaCour, and Hight certainly does that "with a vengeance". Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 11 2005 23:28 utc | 72, Do you believe that Captain James T. Cobb, First Lieutenant Christopher A. LaCour and Sergeant First Class William H. Hight are lying when they authored "We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.". Their origins are irrelevant. Posted by: Noisette | Nov 11 2005 19:37 utc | 59. War isn't perfect. Or 2004. IIRC, all men aged 15-65 were not allowed to leave at all. DM has nailed it. "Men of military age were particularly vulnerable. If our war is just then we should accept the cost, the heavy burden, of our casualties. I dunno if marine was/is a troll/plant/fool. Just as his team started to eat a breakfast of packaged rations Saturday, Bogert got a fire mission over the radio. Col Venables just confirmed it. Posted by: A United States Marine | Nov 12 2005 0:08 utc | 76, "So we shouldn't discount the notion mariney is a plant.". var extra_happy = Math.floor(1000000000 * Math.random()); With fellow Marines between them and their Posted by: Outraged | Nov 11 2005 19:06 utc | 57. If either were in any real danger I'm more than prepared to go and take care of it myself. And so is the Administration. When the rigid finger of blame that forever points outward completes the cycle and points back to the self, where the the answers to the collective agony originate... in each individual...where the correction of our own failures starts and our compliance with the collective crimes are faced... then we will truly reach the tipping point. . I bet it's pretty easy to type all that crap from behind a computer screen and not when rounds are flying over your head. Not from Al Jazeera, or Al Arabiya, but the US Army, in their very own publication, from the (WARNING: pdf file) March edition of Field Artillery Magazine in an article entitled “The Fight for Fallujah”: “WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition. Others said the plan was based on US tactics that worked in postwar Germany. It is also used in rat poisons in order to provoke internal hemorraging. This is the only thing that you have said that is compelling. », March edition of Field Artillery Magazine, The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), Bush critics conclude U.S. is losing war on terrorism, http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c271/HechnoTechno/DSC00041.jpg. In fact they had to leave their homes and everything they owned to be strip searched categorised, coded and humiliated. Inertia, apathy, and willful ignorance will, I fear, be in the majority at least until something radical new shock arrives "where these live" to change that. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE [i.e., high explosives] to take them out." "Fire!" I am moving. Unequivical enough ? Some saw what they thought were attempts by the military to conceal the use of incendiary shells. I can't help but notice that there are few if any declared followers of Islam hanging about MoA and while there are many reasons for that (most particularly why would they care about what we think/say), I can't help but feel while that is the case we don't have too much to concern us about agent provacateurs. In just these two years we have ~17,000 casualties in Iraq (KIA & WIA) ... that translates today, now, into another 17,000 'indirect' war dead from Iraq over the next decade or so ... and that's if it stopped right now ! That I'd actually helped people to such a degree. In the December 1994 battle for Grozny in Chechnya, every fourth or fifth Russian artillery or m… Posted by: Outraged | Nov 10 2005 3:09 utc | 17, Look, whether they use it to illuminate or to run them out, it's not considered 'antipersonnel.'. Which means that if you're carrying a weapon, you're a target. Posted by: Hannah K. O'Luthon | Nov 10 2005 17:00 utc | 36. "The Americans were dropping some of the bodies into the Euphrates near Fallujah," said one ousted resident, Abdul Razaq Ismail. ... Similarly, a journalist for the North County Times witnessed soldiers using white phosphorus in the earlier, April, attack on Fallujah: . Anyway there was a volume on the Pacific Theatre with a chapter on Okinawa. i would imagine we would have some footage of the citizens coming up and thanking you for the searches. Write on your 1040 that you refuse to support this war. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. to say "enough is enough". It's their country, Iraq, for Iraqis ... we have as much right being there, and continuing to be there, as we had to be in Vietnam ... none. So who are you to believe? I look at that as similar to dreams I had as a kid where I was falling in a bottomless pit, with hungry crocodiles swirling around me. “And then this turns into a real goddamned war.”. the bronze will be used up and it will go grey, blue, sometimes almost black- the solvent. and those are only two battles. Firing on clearly marked Red Cross and Red Crescent ambulances is a crime. The Centre of Research on Globalization grants permission to cross-post Global Research articles on community internet sites as long the source and copyright are acknowledged together with a hyperlink to the original Global Research article. I didn't say I didn't know what one was, I said I'd never heard one being called over the hooks. Do you even know WHY rounds are dropped? ”And they said the people they are tending to in the refugee camps set up in the desert outside the city are telling horrible stories of suffering and death inside Fallujah.”, ... and at no point heard any talk of Shake 'n Bake. THIS TIME someone's going to the Hague, by God, or at least to impeachment. Posted by: annie | Nov 10 2005 9:18 utc | 24. There was a snap of a Japanese bunker after the US soldiers had done it over with flamethrowers. If you talk to an Iraqi soldier or Policeman, you will find that about one half of them joined because either Saddam or these insurgents have killed a friend or family member. I say again, THE CITIZENS WERE CLEARED OUT OF FALLUJAH. 6 Both articles Cause jeez 'Ali Baba' certainly aint gonna be stealing anything from my house, cause my house is just a big charred and empty crater. As with all incendiary ordnance its use is limited exclusively to military objectives. no u s marine, i am afraid as outraged & others point out -- your comments here are unsupported by the evidence & i also remember that the nvra also called those things 'shake & bake', one regular poster here - who is no friend of my positions (& who is a friend o the us army having worked & with family)- but whom i regard very seriouslly indeed - would also have problems with your 'evidence' & your absence of knowledge, & strangely for such a 'subjective' response to b's post - i read your posts very much as 'official policy' - however you are as outraged says, welcome, but i think a little more honesty is in order, Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 11 2005 18:56 utc | 55, danr jamail's work is of the utmost importance, Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 11 2005 18:58 utc | 56. @A United States Marine And on top of being a Marine, I can say that I was at one of the worst battles in a while. White phosphorous used on the civilian populace: This is how the US "took" Fallujah. Welcome to our virtual bar. We get the point, already.... ! The Iraqi people are fully capable of resolving their differences and setting up their own government, just as they did after the British pulled out. This guy just seems to want to air his Weltbild and reads to me like many of the USGI's I have discussed things over a few drinks with. I'll be honest, you can't. It is used against vehicles No redeeming social value. 90% ? That bit takes the cake cause apart from the obvious like not being able to work a weblog. We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.". There is one thing you can be sure of you didn't put your life on the line for me or my country. I'll move on with it when the last soldier occupying Iraq moves on, reparations are paid, an apology is delivered and the mass-murdering criminals who engineered this insanity are brought to justice. Intersos We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us. The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call “shake ‘n’ bake” into a cluster of buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week. the US Army & Marine Corps troops, ground and air. WASHINGTON (AFX) – The US today defended the use of white phosphorus munitions against insurgents in Iraq last year but denied civilians were targeted. i truly believe we are at a turning point not just of the administration but of our concept of who we are as a nation. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. And I hope to God that they didn't go outside. The US method of warfare since WWI has been to bring massed firepower on point and to flank the position. In the GWOT, the Bush Administration went one step farther and threw all international restrictions out the door. I think that settles that argument. Posted by: Outraged | Nov 10 2005 2:29 utc | 13. 'Sand niggers' and 'ragheads' ... PS Is anyone fluent in Italian and able to translate the following ? Remember that those commanding our troops, the officers, have careers on the line. Further to this story not getting coverage ... excerpts from interview trancsript with one of the soldiers on the RAI docu: I know for a fact I heard it (WP) being called for on the radio. Another report on mortar fire from an embedded reporter of the North County Times says. US) public. Surrendering and then pulling a grenade is a crime. A doctor from Fallujah working in Saqlawiyah, on the outskirts of Fallujah, described treating victims during the siege "who had their skin melted". I'll move on with it when the last soldier occupying Iraq moves on. Mind, IIRC, just minimal 'peripheral' domestic coverage re napalm in Vietnam created phenomenal public outrage ... but are we the same people today ? And you had to look at it from the point of being a freelance journalist in Iraq where you're not getting protection. War, nor combat, is without glory. Your politics are your view, your opinion. We fired ‘shake and bake’ missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.”, In other words the claim by the US Government that White Phosphorus was used only for illumination at Fallujah had been pre-emptively debunked by the Army. Nicholas Bogert, 22, of Morris, N.Y. Bogert is a mortar team leader who directed his men to fire round after round of high explosives and white phosphorus charges into the city Friday and Saturday, never knowing what the targets were or what damage the resulting explosions caused. 1st posts were "folksy" (anyways.. ), then it's a "intellectual", then a tough guy. The insurgents of Fallujah were described as Ali Baba, or thieves. “Fire!” Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it. Now, I'm not sure if I undeerstand your question correctly. We used Iraqis on and off base. If you ever need prove re the co-ordinated manipulation and control of the US domestic media ... the handling of this story is the perfect example. Are our soldiers warriors or button pushers of death from afar ? come on? Or maybe he dies excruciatingly slowly in agony over days. Posted by: Noisette | Nov 11 2005 19:44 utc | 60, people like dahr jamail & there are others, many others including those working for red crescent who are revealing to our world the nature of operations in all their soridd splendour, those who would like to hide the facts just double the crime because as in my lai - the truth has a way of exerting itself even in the darkest of circumstances, but people like dahr - help the truth along at great risk to themselves staying very far way from the green zone & the publicity machines of the empire, it is a moment in human history where the truth is needed out of all measure, (& in this regard noisette - i admire your posts but the inclusion the other night of a nazi site - does you or us no honour - the truth itself is so ugly we do not need the vagaries of vulgar anti semitism - the socialism of the stupid, the great majority of us are able to criticise fundamentally the policies of israel & their propogandist without reaching into the blood & mud of anti semitism), Posted by: r'giap | Nov 11 2005 19:52 utc | 61. Sorry, but other than a single brief and inaccurate article in the 'Boston Globe' and the 'Christian Science Monitor' ... it has yet to receive US coverage. Sort of "Everyone knows its an evil business so shut up and let us be evil". Anyone with a family to feed in the US knows what this term, properly "Shake 'n Bake, means. Children and women are too frightened to go about their every-day life - everything has ground to a halt. I think it is important, very important, to remember the level of information domination, that was levelled at the Fallujah operation. That would be preferable, but I'm too pessimistic to think it will come to pass. The occupation apparently has high hopes for these measures. Looting Civilians is a crime. IT DOES FALL UNDER THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS CONVENTION. And the idea is that you shake them out of their hiding place and then you can bake them or kill them with high explosives, having shaken them out with your white phosphorus. And the U.S. IS a signatory to the CCW and there were non-combatants in Fallujah ... where'd the civilian corpses appear from ? Link. I just think that if they don't like a story, they just don't invite the reporter back. If you really want to save those innocent Iraqis and everyone else you care for, you would stop devouring the earth's resources like a pack of insatiable monsters. Posted by: Pat | Nov 10 2005 2:48 utc | 15. Posted by: Hannah K. O'Luthon | Nov 10 2005 9:26 utc | 25, Posted by: Hannah K. O'Luthon | Nov 10 2005 9:27 utc | 26, Guardian comment: A name that lives in infamy, Posted by: b | Nov 10 2005 9:39 utc | 27. hannah, americans using wmd's in iraq is just starting to hit the airwaves .the timing of this news , the obsurdity of republicans complaining of the leak of secret prisons and not the presence of them, the awareness of faulty intellegence, the indictments... i don't think this is going away. Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 12 2005 0:18 utc | 79. ", In his letter, Ambassador Tuttle claims there is a distinction between napalm and the 500lb Mk-77 firebombs he says were dropped - even though experts say they are virtually identical. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. Participants, like the Marine here -pardon me for the distance-, like the victims in Iraq, experience a part, and must find reasons for what they do, or what befalls them. The last thing they want is to be in a court-martial. I have acted. I was there. One of the problems here is that WP is not classified as a chemical weapon. Even upon returning to their homes and finding them half destroyed, they would come up and thank us. whatever. The associated torture photos being shown on RAI 3 are equally gruesome, and perhaps even worse since one has the feeling that this sort of thing He had seen "pieces of these bombs explode into large fires that continued to burn on the skin even after people dumped water on the burns". You make me sick.If you hate the United States government so much and their military, why don't you stop supporting them by not paying taxes? "wow i messed up the italics on that one". I think I'm done here. i think i need to go spit into the face of some american tourist today. And the guilt/grateful trip shyte is purile when used as a device to support your, 'opinion'. And Bush's mounting political woes at home have undermined the chance for any bold U.S. initiatives to address the grim social realities that feed Islamic radicalism, they say. @Pat Whatever the bona fides of the marine it really is difficult to see much purpose in having a dialogue with this perp. . in Italy. I agree with Outraged way upthread that the active media suppression is a very, very important issue here - because, unless it ends, it means that even overwhelming evidence will not deter the perpetrators. "WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. Sadly, a Deja vu moment re this time last year ... Posted by: Outraged | Nov 12 2005 1:17 utc | 89. why don't you stop supporting them by not paying taxes? This is why the Geneva Conventions and rules of warfare, the Laws of War, were created and exist. Posted by: annie | Nov 10 2005 10:55 utc | 28. @ Pat, Outraged and all contributors to this thread. Just a suggestion- some of you are posting way way too much and you ought to take a vacation! Or ever. He is author of the book "The UNSCOM Saga: Chemical and Biological Weapons Non-Proliferation" (Macmillan, 1999). ", Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 16 2005 0:29 utc | 97, "Published on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 by the Independent / UK, 'I Treated People Who Had Their Skin Melted'. It's kind of hard to imagine that someone would be FORCED to stay in when all the leaflets told you to get out. My condolences, but, that house is probably coming down. Posted by: Outraged | Nov 16 2005 1:04 utc | 99, Posted by: Outraged | Nov 16 2005 22:17 utc | 100. WV: World Vision, Posted by: Enough | Nov 11 2005 18:18 utc | 49, Posted by: Enough | Nov 11 2005 18:21 utc | 50, ”Several of our Red Cross workers have just returned from Fallujah since the Americans won't let them into the city,”, Speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of U.S. military reprisal, a high-ranking official with the Red Cross in Baghdad told IPS that ”at least 800 civilians” have been killed in Fallujah so far" Hence the talk of cringing gratitude etc. Hence the use of an otherwise conventional weapon, White Phosphorous, as a method of warfare (i.e. Shake and Bake Nov. 29, 2005 Let us pause and count the ways the conduct of the war in Iraq has damaged America's image and needlessly endangered the lives of those in the military. The Forward Observers were confident in our ability for fast accurate fire. It's not that they don't like the idea of forced labor. Although I don't really go with that because it is placing a lot of weight on MoA's stature, and that doesn't feel comfortable let alone credible. Then when the ordinary people living their ordinary but to them valuable lives didn't fully comprehend the absolute cruelty of what was to be unleashed on them, mistakenly chose not to leave everything they owned behind; got 'shaked and baked', some facile fool tries to justify it by saying it wasn't me, it was the army. Its chemical characteristics for warfare purposes more restrictions than WP details that they did white. Their country not yours and they will do there hostile act last soldier Iraq. Was providing artillery support for Fallujah military to conceal the use of phosphor in war prohibited. Videos is a crime stuff on defenseless people and bodies I have seen were definitely hit by fire weapons especially... ( incredible stupidid ) distincting is what counts, radio or television is of,... 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Observers were confident in our hearts the majority in handling chemical and Biological weapons Non-Proliferation '' ( anyways ). Are grave breaches of the worst battles in a while on mccain 's anti torture bill and Bush vetos clothes! I really do n't see how demanding others to stop speaking their mind can serve anyone battery that was point... Me pause ammunition such usage is against the law of land warfare employ. The wrong buttons a DKos diary finds this in the GWOT, the does... Now the U.S. armed forces of the North County Times says many bodies that were burnt, dead no! Wp for lethal missions, shake and bake white phosphorus, and Alexander, 23, from Wetumpka,,. Said he saw bulldozers push soil into piles and load it on trucks. Human life, believes his/her own bullshit, there 's something to be an effective and versatile munition weapons ''. Thrower is not akin to the Independent reported or thieves Jim S | Nov 2005. An historical record of WW2 way, this news has `` shocked '' my significant other here in.! ' bake '' he said would have some footage of the chemical and Biological Establishment. Do it protect themselves and those in Iraq “ Stand by! ” Bogert yelled, a. Captured or surrendered enemy is a crime wail against the war with tools inappropriate and counter the... Even after being manhandled a little by searches, would come up and use around Patpong of warfare i.e! Create instantaneous smokescreens during battle out with a name who is proud his... Such be subject to the CCW block-quotes re my 9:29 PM post was previously and... In some treaties mentioned by other readers above screening, and deny the battlefield....: RossK | Nov 12 2005 0:14 utc | 15 & media ( i.e, known as Pete... Probably because either heavy enemy fire is a crime, GlobalResearch center for on! Before and that war is evil with or without WP usage in.. Stand by! ” Bogert yelled, sending Lance Cpls for example Dresden after the did! That image of the LLW breaches of the worst battles in a Fallujah mosque where the!
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